Sarcastic and snide remarks will no longer be tolerated

[selden]

Gentle folk,

I am very sorry that several people have decided that my reiterating the rules of the Celestia Web forum in such a public and blunt manner was not something they could live with. However, I felt it was essential to make it clear that things could not go on as they were.

I do have to apologize for what must seem to some to be a rather abrupt change from my normally relaxed form of moderating. For me, however, this is something which has been building for a very long time. I simply could no longer stomach the continued abuse of newcomers to the Celestia forum and especially of those who have little or no understanding of how computers and software do what they do.

As a member of a computer support organization, I continuously come into contact with people who do not understand computers or how they work. Patient education usually solves this.
Insulting them and making fun of them do not.

Since I cannot be monitoring the Forum all the time, I have to depend on all forum members acting appropriately. Although it isn't explicitly stated in the Forum's guidelines, to me the statements about being polite include being welcoming to novice strangers. Sadly, some people have shown that they can't or won't do that.

The departure of some of the Forum's senior members is regrettable. However, the rules have to apply to everyone. Seniority and importance to a project, whether perceived or actual, must not be used as a license to mistreat others.

[Chuft-Captain]

This all seems reasonable Selden, and IMO no need for you to apologise.

Your comments and their tone were I believe within the normal bounds of your role as moderator, even if somewhat more blunt than your usual style.

CC

[selden]

CC,

Thanks for your support. It's greatly appreciated.

It has been brought to my attention that in a small community like this one, a public list of who has been banned and why, is easily interpreted as being a "shame list". That had not been my intent, but rather for it to be a public record of my own actions and of those of whoever else might have this responsibility. This kind of list is also common in larger Forums, like BAUT, and I thought it would be appropriate to emulate them.

This would seem to be my mistake, however, and a personal, private reprimand in the form of a temporary ban is more appropriate. I'm removing the Banned topic.

[Cham]

Selden,

the banned list is very common on billboards and forums. I was a member of several large forums in the past and most of them were using a ban list. So this isn't a problem to me.

I fully support your choice as the moderator of a highly emotive forum. So please don't apologize.

[ElChristou]

It has been brought to my attention that in a small community like this one, a public list of who has been banned and why, is easily interpreted as being a "shame list". That had not been my intent, but rather for it to be a public record of my own actions and of those of whoever else might have this responsibility. This kind of list is also common in larger Forums, like BAUT, and I thought it would be appropriate to emulate them.

BAUT Board:

Number of threads: 77,446
Number of posts: 1,446,335
Number of members: 48,595

~5O members ALWAYS logged in

CELESTIA Board:

Number of threads: 12,711
Number of posts: 111,904
Number of members: 7116

~5 bots and 1 member ALWAYS logged in

I really wonder how you came with the idea that one solution for a board could be good for another with such stats...

Selden,

the banned list is very common on billboards and forums. I was a member of several large forums in the past and most of them were using a ban list. So this isn't a problem to me.

I fully support your choice as the moderator of a highly emotive forum. So please don't apologize.

Now sorry guys but I said I was out, but Cham is passing some limits here so I have to explain here why our beloved Cham have chosen to do such post NOW when he have step away from the community supposedly because they were not enough activity and dynamism here.
So the the problem with Cham is that he simply cannot stand anymore either Fridger or I simply because we have emitted some criticism about his work. So basically he is siding Selden here for whatever but GOOD reasons AND THAT IS NOT TOLERABLE BECAUSE THIS IS JUST SABOTAGE. HE DON'T CARE ANYMORE ABOUT CELESTIA SO HE TAKE THE FREEDOM TO POST WHATEVER BULLSHIT TO FAN THE FLAMES A BIT MORE.

Many Tx Cham for your great participation. Try next time to troll in another board. Please don't react over this comment. Tx.

[ANDREA]

I'll try to help the bad memory of a lot of people here.
I remember when I used an angry way (but a lot of people made the same thing before me, even if I don't use this as a justification) to reply to danielj continuous annoying requests and complaints, and I did the same with symastik, using sarcasm against him and his cryptic way of (not) writing posts.
Later on we discovered that the bad way they used for their communications with Celestia community was due to their serious health problems, not to a bad will or a bad education.
I felt ashamed of myself for this, and I think (I hope) that the other people that used my same nasty approach to their queries made the same.
This just to say that when a newbie approaches our forum, no one can judge the reasons why he is posting that way, because we know nothing about him.
Surely we don't know his:
intelligence,
experience,
good will,
age,
nationality,
language,
education,
religion,
culture,
social environment,
preferences,
health,
behaviour problems,
and what else.
In a single word… NOTHING!
He is simply a perfect stranger, knocking at our door and asking for help, nothing more.
But if his wrong approach goes on the same way, the moderator will contact him by PM (and not in the forum) and put him on the right manner or, if he disagrees or doesn’t, to ban him from Celestia Forums.
I invite each of you to think about how many other Celestians you really know, following the above given parameters.
Ten?
Three?
Or perhaps no one?
So I'm absolutely aligned with Selden's way of solving this problem, that moreover has been growing more and more.
I can only criticize Selden because probably this should have been done a lot of time ago.
Rules exist, and have been subscribed by each of us, and they must be followed by everyone, whatever be his contribute to Celestia.
Who doesn’t agree… well, the universe is so big, there is room for anybody, somewhere else, with all our sincere greetings!
But I'll be very unhappy of this, anyway.
Peace, men, please!
Bye

Andrea

[Guckytos]

CC,

Thanks for your support. It's greatly appreciated.

It has been brought to my attention that in a small community like this one, a public list of who has been banned and why, is easily interpreted as being a "shame list". That had not been my intent, but rather for it to be a public record of my own actions and of those of whoever else might have this responsibility. This kind of list is also common in larger Forums, like BAUT, and I thought it would be appropriate to emulate them.

This would seem to be my mistake, however, and a personal, private reprimand in the form of a temporary ban is more appropriate. I'm removing the Banned topic.

Selden,

then for gods sake create a new subforum with the title "Help", link the FAQs there and the README and the HELP, write some stickies with the most often asked questions and make also the following post:

Please read the FAQ and HELP before posting here, also make a fourm search for your problem, often the same questions have been asked and answered before.
If you don't find an answer and you want to get help, state at least which version of Celestia you are using and your operation system, perhaps your system specs. So it will be easier to help you.
If your are having trouble with graphical display, read first in the FAQ about updating your graphics driver. If you already have the latest drivers and the problem is still there, post the results of what Celestia displays under "Help/OpenGL Info" in your post as this also helps us to help you.

For the last "OpenGL Info" it could perhaps even be mandatory. I know some software forums, where you will only get help if you post a failure log created by the software.

And after that new subforum is created, move all the help questions there.

Best regards,

Guckytos

[bh]

I'm still here! I'm with you cc and selden. This, of course, doesn't mean I'm against anyone... although I have noticed a more than elitist attitude.

[ElChristou]

I'll try to help the bad memory of a lot of people here.
I remember when I used an angry way (but a lot of people made the same thing before me, even if I don't use this as a justification) to reply to danielj continuous annoying requests and complaints, and I did the same with symastik, using sarcasm against him and his cryptic way of (not) writing posts.
Later on we discovered that the bad way they used for their communications with Celestia community was due to their serious health problems, not to a bad will or a bad education.
I felt ashamed of myself for this, and I think (I hope) that the other people that used my same nasty approach to their queries made the same.
This just to say that when a newbie approaches our forum, no one can judge the reasons why he is posting that way, because we know nothing about him.
Surely we don't know his:
intelligence,
experience,
good will,
age,
nationality,
language,
education,
religion,
culture,
social environment,
preferences,
health,
behaviour problems,
and what else.
In a single word… NOTHING!
He is simply a perfect stranger, knocking at our door and asking for help, nothing more.
But if his wrong approach goes on the same way, the moderator will contact him by PM (and not in the forum) and put him on the right manner or, if he disagrees or doesn’t, to ban him from Celestia Forums.
I invite each of you to think about how many other Celestians you really know, following the above given parameters.
Ten?
Three?
Or perhaps no one?
So I'm absolutely aligned with Selden's way of solving this problem, that moreover has been growing more and more.
I can only criticize Selden because probably this should have been done a lot of time ago.
Rules exist, and have been subscribed by each of us, and they must be followed by everyone, whatever be his contribute to Celestia.
Who doesn’t agree… well, the universe is so big, there is room for anybody, somewhere else, with all our sincere greetings!

Andrea, again you simplify something a bit more complex.
I've been in same position than you and many others regarding Danielj and Symansky and I have as you apologize for my own reactions to these (at the time) incomprehensive posts and behaviors. But it was half a fault from our side. As I said about this topic, whatever person with whatever physical or psychological problem should have introduce themselves in their very first post to avoid what happened. It would have been a mark of respect for everybody, including them! So this is a particular point and should not be mixed with the many fully capacited persons who just step in with "kind of the hill" attitude...

Now, concerning your perfect stranger knocking at the door, I fully agree with you. Now in whatever situation, job interview, visit to people you don't know etc. you will take a humble and correct attitude. Else you don't have the job and people will have a really bad impression of your person. Is that correct or not?
So about the newbie issue here, to me it's the same. I simply cannot imagine that someone with such a level of knowledge as ChrisL or Fridger (that the kind of people we do need) can be loutish at the point of being rejected after a single post. I guess the probability for such individual to exist is near zero.
All the guys that have been turn out have shown some loutish attitude. Now if you really do believe such people may help, then, ok we do disagree and there is nothing to say anymore.

[ElChristou]

...although I have noticed a more than elitist attitude.

I guess it's for me!
Well Bob, you're right, anyway Celestia is actually an elitist soft, so I guess your comment here is null.
Anyway as a reminder, I'm one of the very few fighting to get a more "popular" soft with better UI better access and all... Tx anyway for your participation!

[t00fri]

Perhaps it is important for avoiding further misunderstandings, that the whole issue is NOT about accepting certain rules in a forum like shatters. We had them much before yesterday's incident. Of course to some extent this is necessary, and at CelestialMatters, where Christophe and I are Administrators/Moderators ourselves, we have some, too.

Yet, threatening highly merited senior users / Devs / Celestia co-authors(!) in "grand public" with "Banned User" displays like it was practiced with delinquents on market places in medieval times (!) etc., is disgusting and offending. Throwing all natural respect over board, Selden has treated grown-up people with high achievements in other fields merely as BAD BOYS who have never learned how to behave...

The very fact that Selden missed to see the huge difference between requirements of gigantic general astro forums like BAUT and our Celestia-focussed much smaller one is also deplorable.

Fridger

[CeeBee]

I can relate to what Seldon says. I'm sysadmin at another forum and very often people ask questions about software they could easily find in the documentation or the help file. Some people repeatedly ask very basic questions.

Some are plain lazy, and that irritates me aswell. However, I always respond with a friendly but urgent remark like "it would be good to consult the documentation / browse the help file to make yourself familiar with the basic functions". I hope that with such a remark the intention "please do some work yourself, leave this forum to people with real problems" is clear yet friendly formulated. And the jerks won't be irritated and stressed: I'm the only one who will be when it comes to an online brawl.

On the other hand I'm continuously trying to help my 77 year old mom to deal with Internet, e-mail and an occasional program, and I know she enjoys the opportunities, but has absolutely no feeling whatsoever to find it out herself. Her questions are very basic as well, because her age and lack of experience prohibits her to grasp the concepts themselves.

In between there are all the other variations of people asking for help. I think Seldon's solution is a good one; if you read a question from a stupid lazy user, simply ignore. The result will be that they have to find out themselves in the end, and the tone on this forum will stay friendly and cooperative. All winners, no losers. Just my 2c.

All the best,

[ElChristou]

I can relate to what Seldon says. I'm sysadmin at another forum and very often people ask questions about software they could easily find in the documentation or the help file. Some people repeatedly ask very basic questions.

Some are plain lazy, and that irritates me aswell. However, I always respond with a friendly but urgent remark like "it would be good to consult the documentation / browse the help file to make yourself familiar with the basic functions". I hope that with such a remark the intention "please do some work yourself, leave this forum to people with real problems" is clear yet friendly formulated. And the jerks won't be irritated and stressed: I'm the only one who will be when it comes to an online brawl.

On the other hand I'm continuously trying to help my 77 year old mom to deal with Internet, e-mail and an occasional program, and I know she enjoys the opportunities, but has absolutely no feeling whatsoever to find it out herself. Her questions are very basic as well, because her age and lack of experience prohibits her to grasp the concepts themselves.

In between there are all the other variations of people asking for help. I think Seldon's solution is a good one; if you read a question from a stupid lazy user, simply ignore. The result will be that they have to find out themselves in the end, and the tone on this forum will stay friendly and cooperative. All winners, no losers. Just my 2c.

All the best,

I Ceebee, Welcome! too bad you are stepping here in such circumstances but my issue here is definitively not a problem with newcomers.

*Parenthesis:
Hey Selden, one more welcome; Tx to take note.
For Ceebee and others, Selden in the dev list was insinuating I was unable to welcome anybody. This is a blatant calumny because de facto I'm the one who has welcomed the most new comers recently and not so recently. You can check this by a simple search. I ask him some apologize but I'm still waiting...
*End of the parenthesis

So Ceebee, my issue here is that I've asked since a long time (years) a better structure of the forum to welcome people correctly. What I mean are simple things that for sure could have been VERY effective to avoid the problem of annoying questions and preserve a peaceful ambiance for those working. What cost to give access to forums depending on your participation? Less than 50 posts, Newcomers forum with tutorials, links to resources, FAQ, etc... More than 50 acess to the rest of the board. But BEFORE all, when registration is done, what cost a pre formatted PM with a Welcome (for sure) and some notes about Celestia (not really a game) and the etiquette of the board?
But nope, ChrisL don't want to administrate the board (and I do understand him, he have lot to do much more important), and Selden just prefer the easy way taking as reference some ultra huge communities that cannot be compared with our with a leitmotiv adapted to these communities: everybody in the same bag and that's all.

So resuming, I'm the one asking for a better place since along time, I'm the one welcoming most people, I'm the one trying to attract people with all I have outside this forum, I'm the one try to move people here to build a next UI that will simplify the life of all newbies and because I've turn out a few impolite/rude newcomers I become the reason why this community is dying!

So ok, as people here want to blindly support Selden without having the smallest idea of what is the real issue here, fine. I'm just out.

[t00fri]

Ceebee, Welcome! too bad you are stepping here in such circumstances but my issue here is definitively not a problem with newcomers.

Christophe, watch out with your Welcome!

CeeBee is a member of this forum since August 20, 2007. He wrote his first post today.

Anyway from me, welcome to your first post...

Fridger

[ANDREA]

I'll try to help the bad memory of a lot of people here.....................Who doesn’t agree… well, the universe is so big, there is room for anybody, somewhere else, with all our sincere greetings!

Now if you really do believe such people may help, then, ok we do disagree and there is nothing to say anymore.

Christophe, please allow me to say one thing, anyway:
in your (almost) full citation of my message, you probably missed to copy and past the only important thing contained there, i.e.:

But I'll be very unhappy of this, anyway.
Peace, men, please!

I'm sure this is what 99.9% of Celestians are wishing.
So, for all the good things we made together, will you please stand just a moment, and think about this?
Thank you, friendly.

Andrea